tv Book TV Encore Booknotes CSPAN April 30, 2011 6:00pm-7:00pm EDT
bands, their own particular groups, and crazy horse appeared on the scene, received a lot of attention from white officials at the beginning, some who suggested he was made chief of all the sioux, the american officials wanted there to be one chief of all the sioux, completely unnatural to them, because if there was one chief, they could agree with him and everybody had to do it. that was the idea, so that suggestion irritated the rivals, and the traditional way of changing leadership among lakota and sioux bands is you abandon the leader or kill the leader. it was tribal politics as it was customarily carried out. >> well, i want to thank you all for coming and being here with us. [applause] thanks. we'll be doing signings over in
"los angeles times" festival. that should be the last panel session for today but we have one more author to introduce you to in a call in program and we will be back tomorrow for discussion of nonfiction books from the campus of usc, the beautiful campus of usc. we are going to move from american history to foreign policy and talk about the new best-selling book and this is the first book for you. was what is it like to be on the best-seller list of the book? >> guest: it's nice to hear people react and people are connecting to it and i'm so incredibly grateful. >> it's a story about afghanistan but it's about one woman and one family in afghanistan so it really personalizes some of the challenges of that country. it's called the dressmakers of speed and tells the story of >> guest: it tells the story of a young woman who is supposed to be a teacher and ended up becoming an entrepreneur because
there were so tough on so many people and she was left as the head of a family with five brothers and sisters counting on her and she became an entrepreneur and a dressmakers because there was nothing else women were to able to do. >> host: the interesting thing is she had never sewn before and became a successful dressmaker. >> guest: in the course of spending years going back and forth in afghanistan writing the book which i really think celebrates the unsung heroines whose stories are never told during the war. what i learned is that she realized pretty quickly on that she was actually sort of lousy seamstress but she was a really good businesswoman, and the seamstresses kept coming to her house, the young and girls who knew the families were counting on them the same way hers was and she was good at the marketing, the business planning, keeping track, paying people and that is what she loved and she became an entrepreneur because of those years. >> host: how many women did she employees and does she continue to work today? >> guest: she had about 100
women in her neighborhood all of whom would come, some of them would sew at her house, which her living room became this factory that was also a community center, the younger girls would come over and do what they would have done in school if they could have gone. they would talk about their lessons and swap jokes and listen to music and talk about leonardo dicaprio, all of these things come and that experience taught her that she didn't want to go back to be a professor which is what she was going to do at the beginning and she is now on her third visit. she's a business consultant that teaches entrepreneurship skills all across afghanistan. >> host: so this is a book about afghanistan and about women's experience in the days of the taliban, and of course under u.s. policy of our engagement there. and it's a chance to really understand how our policy is playing out through the eyes of this one story, the dressmaker, khair kahn and we would like to
get your calls for this is the process of making this interactive see you all for your comment by phone order. let me give you the telephone numbers. he strolled the and -- eastern and central time zone is 202-585-3885. if you live in a mountain or how many times did you travel to afghanistan? >> guest: seven times since 2005. i spent about one third of 2008 and one-third of 2009 and a big chunk of 2009 and last year i was there for the july for the kabul conference and i was there in december about seven months pregnant working on maternal health stories. >> host: that wasn't a great way to engage with the women because of common experience. now your career as a political television producer for abc. how did you make the transition from that to writing this book? >> guest: very carefully. [laughter] i left abc, and i left abc. you've had a lot of my former boss is on and i know your colleagues at c-span since i was
watching, and i left because i knew that there were so many stories i wanted to do that i wouldn't get to do the way the news places were going, and i really care that economic development stories and under told stories, and the stories of the women in war or just almost never told. if i save war story you think about the west which are all the incredible books but the lead out so many people. and these women are the ones who make sure there's a community to go back to when the war is over. >> host: and is camilla her real name? were you able to tell the details without endangering her? >> guest: it's a great question and i kept asking her about it. the truth is when you read the book these girls did everything they could to stay within the taliban rule. they never worked with men or talked with men, they were the burba on the street. they did everything they could to find opportunities within the rules and to take care of people all around their community. so when i asked hershel to use your real name she said of course i'm an entrepreneur and i want people to know how much
work i did on behalf of my community and i worked a very hard to stay within the rules and i wanted to know my business now because all entrepreneurs she's very self promoting any smart and savvy way. >> host: in a nut shell, to entice people to read the book, but explain how much her life changed before and after the television to give us a sense of what transition was like for the women. >> guest: it was dramatic because these young women in this book were just like the young women that so many of us know and our families. they went to school, they went to universities, they have plans for working in the future and all of a sudden overnight, that was the ending. none of that was possible because the taliban rules said women, any woman who was a teacher could no longer go to work so all of that was over. and with these girls did was to find out the opportunity to remain calm and the did the one thing they still could and they became the entrepreneurs. >> host: another way you can connect with us is on twitter if you get on twitter.com we are at
book tv and you can send a message and we will work it into the discussion. let's listen to a call from arlington, virginia. you are on the air, go ahead. >> caller: okay. i was wondering what do you think will happen to these women and other women in afghanistan to have become their own business or have gone out on their own with the u.s. withdraw and whatever government takes over, it may be allies with the taliban and the current government seems to be putting out even before we leave. so i'm wondering what you think will happen to these women once the u.s. leaves and things go back to the normal semi chaotic situation in afghanistan. >> guest: i think it's an excellent question. thank you for that. what i hear when i talk to the women, many of whom are not in this book and some of whom are, is that the real fear -- do what these things desperately and they are not at all opposed to negotiating with afghan
brothers, as they call them and as president karzai calls them. but but they are concerned about is rights will be the fodder for negotiation. and really all they are asking for is the right to go to work and the right to go to school, which right now the afton constitution gives them. and i think it's of to the international community to see whether women will have a real sea to the table in the discussions that are under way now way that will continue to percolate as 2011 becomes 2012 to 2013 and the withdrawal happens. and i think it is, you know, something the american public can do, tell the lawmakers who want to make sure women have a seat at the table. >> host: when you talk to the women do they understand and appreciate what the western allies, the presence is all about? >> guest: they understand it very personally because it's shaping their daily lives, and i think what you see so much -- amine i spent time with girls, high school principals, alterman norris, and what you see is they have taken the openings of the international community's
presence to contribute as much as they can for as many as they can. and i think all they are asking for -- they don't want the international community to be there forever, and desert understand that there's a finite time the world will be in the country. what they want is just to be able to contribute to the future of their country and that's really all they are asking for. >> host: next call is from what rich new jersey. go ahead, please. >> caller: yes, hello. my name is daniel fernandez and i am an anthropologist from sri lanka and unfortunately i haven't gotten the chance to read your book and by so grateful that you have written about these normal people. one of the questions that i have -- i definitely am going to go and buy your book just so that i can read and understand it -- one of the questions that i have is for the afghan people the have gone through so much trouble with the russians being
there and all the international stuff that happened and now with the united states being there. so how do ordinary people react to the presence of the united states and what is going on with karzai being against this and so forth? do the understand that we are really there to help them, or is there any kind of hostility about these other things happening? thank you very much, once again, for writing about these ordinary people who are the heroes and heroines of the world. thank you so much again. >> guest: thank you. another excellent question which is why i love c-span. i think that what fascinates me not told and are not in the headlines and are not men with guns and their stories are so often not told. and in afghanistan if i see what you think of when i see afghanistan people think of bombing, kidnapping, not usually
carry wins and entrepreneurs and regular families who are just like families here, doing the best they can everyday to make something better for the sake of their children. and i think, you know, women in the stories are almost never told when it comes to the war and that's why i thought this matter. in terms of your question about what the impression is about the international community's presence, i think it depends on where you live. a lot of women all over the country, and i have spoken to, are very grateful for the fact that the girls can go to school, that they can work. but there's no question that these campaigns take real tolls on real people's lives, and when a bombing ends up taking your child as a casualty you can understand why your view of the international presence is less benign, and i think it does tend to become dependent or proximity to that. the when i speak to -- the previous questions that we don't want the world here forever we just want to be a to make a gain and server were country and use the openings with the international sleeve we can be a part of making sure feast would
get worse. >> host: explain what part of the country she lives in. >> guest: her family is in the north of kabul and it is a suburb that is a good home and by traffic it's about 30 minutes but by driving just a couple miles from downtown kabul. >> host: and has -- i asked the question earlier whether or not you could use her name, but more people watching her association with you and did that put her in any danger at all? >> guest: there were a lot of young women in this book i spent time with of never talked about what the taliban years were like for them and i went through great pain to make sure that i did everything i could not to put anyone at rest. i wore black pants, black t-shirts, headscarf, no makeup and a jacket from the islamic clothing store, and i think i was actually incredibly disappointing for many young woman because if they said an american woman journalist was going to interview you they thought pamela anderson was
going to shove, not as one young woman said to me a sort of conversion of ourselves. but it was done on purpose. >> host: a speed version of yourself. [laughter] >> guest: which is true and it was done on purpose. and you know, really and truly this is just a snapshot of what these young women's lives were like. this isn't a book that takes a political stand in any extent of the word because it was just to show even an incredibly difficult times for the women they manage to find a way and not just for themselves but for so many other people in their neighborhood and that is why i think that they were willing to talk to me is because as i said i just want to know what your daily life was like because so few people know it and have a picture of the younger girls who are breadwinners and they aren't even supposed to be on the streets. >> host: ontario, oregon is the next caller. good afternoon. >> caller: thank you. i'm really interested in two things and i would like, susan, not to wiggle the book. we often don't get the title. so, the question now is i watch
the earlier programs about the kabul beauty school and i wonder if you had any connections of that at all while you were there? >> guest: >> host: and do you have a second question? >> caller: yes. most of the time in the kabul beauty school program, she talked about the importance of the very fancy dresses for the weddings. is that what most of these ladies are learning to do is to make a very fancy things for weddings? >> host: thanks for the question. >> guest: thank you very much. two things, no, i did not know those. this story, the difference i think is this took place during that 11 years when there were not foreigners in afghanistan for the most part. this really is about the young girls managed to do for themselves when no one was paying attention and almost every bit the have forgotten.
there's a couple interesting scenes about wedding dresses in the book. i wont give them away too much, but when things are an incredibly important part of the afghan life and all that was true during the taliban years as it is now. but the address is now are much fancier than they were then and, you know, the reason why these girls had a dress making business that could stay in business during the taliban years is because so many people that have money and means have left afghanistan and certainly left kabul, so the market for the very sort of locally made, made in your living room kind of stuff that wasn't quite as fancy or as so much that it's popular now is because that's the market opportunity that these girls knew. >> host: excuse me. next is a call from oakland, new jersey. oakland, you are on the air. >> caller: i wanted to ask gayle whether or not the work that cabelas is doing now will influence of the other women, muslim women in other countries.
>> guest: i think that is an excellent point because the reason why -- and i talk about this in the introduction to the book -- when i met her i was working on a financial times piece about women entrepreneurs, and the first thing she said to me is money is power for women, and the earning an income earns respect. and that that's why she thought that entrepreneurship was so powerful for both men and women was because it changes people's lives overnight, and women have more of a role to make sure that girls and boys get educated when they have money coming into the house. so, i mean, she really does believe that the entrepreneurship is the answer to so many of the country's issues and that is up to afghan's including afghans like herself to make sure that men and women are able to start businesses that provide jobs and create an come in the country that is clearly economically struggling. >> host: life from the "los angeles times" festival of the book. we are talking about a new book
of a particular group of women and one in particular, the dressmaker of khair kahn with gayle lemmon the author. and as a question by twittered. how did you gain their trust? did you worry -- did they worry how you were going to write their story? >> guest: i love this question because it means so much to me personally. i worked very hard for years to keep coming back and to explain to them that i have enormous respect for their families and for the work that they had done during those years and that always wanted to do is create a snapshot of that. it was to be just a documentary in some ways but in the book. and i think in a place like afghanistan as one of your callers said people have been through so much and they've seen so much and they don't trust easily as well the shouldn't, he gives up to you as a journalist to go back and go back and through the stories you right along the way and the stories you tell and the trust you earn by showing up i learned okay a
tiny bit of pashtu but it's a lot harder for me and it proves to then you care very much about telling their story in an honest way. it's not spectacular but it's a decent and it honors the work that these young women did. >> host: a third question is how did you find the story? you obviously have lots of different opportunities. how did you do this particular one? >> guest: talk about this in the introduction to the book because it was a sort of eureka moment reporting. i was in the middle of writing the financial times story about women entrepreneurs and afghanistan and i was writing the case for the harvard business school and some of them were really interesting but then i met this young woman who was telling me during passionately about her third business and why entrepreneur ship was the answer for so many of the afghanistan clothes and i said will barely 30 and i know you're not 30 so how do you know that much about this? she looked at me as if it were
so obvious and sidley tikrit business of the taliban that support of all these women in my neighborhood of and i was supposed to be a professor but was those years that may be an entrepreneur because i learned about business because my family was counting on me and that is i thought what a story that stands for so many of us. >> host: colorado is next. good afternoon. colorado, are you there? okay. let's move on to georgia, please. are you on the air? georgia, go ahead, please. >> caller: first of all i want to thank you for writing the book. i was so angry when i heard that americans just to dismiss women, that we couldn't do anything when they were asked about it in iraq, and when i look at iran, those women could be sitting down right down in the mall and just fit right in.
and it makes me wonder in afghanistan if they were left to their own devices how much to the present relationship they are forced to have with men, the subservient relationship? >> guest: i think afghanistan is a family centered culture for both men and women, and i don't hear a lot of resentment. i hear the wind to what women do all around the world which is get on with it. people are counting on them. the work needs to be done. and the do it. they do it because no one else is going to oftentimes and because they know that they can and they know that their and i think that is what also drove me to the story over and over again is that it was so universal. almost everyone has an aunt, mother, grandmother that sacrifice for them and taking risks against very different backdrops, and for me this work is a celebration of the work women do all the time with
almost no one noticing and it's also a war story that shows a different side of conflict. >> host: top story of dr. marion, please. >> guest: and glad you asked that because dr. marion was one of the most compelling people i had ever met in any country anywhere. she is a woman doctor who practiced medicine all throughout the taliban years and the have seen so many educated women left and she didn't. and she's a major character in the dressmaker because she runs the clinic for the women in the afternoon after she works at the hospital in the morning and she runs this clinic for women all around the neighborhood. and one time i asked her why in the world she had stayed in the time when almost everyone she had left. she said because it's my country and i will not be kicked out. and by the way, if i had left during the taliban years who would have practiced medicine on women because later on one of the tel dan ruled that women could not be male doctors.
only women doctors can treat women and if they all were gone who was going to give the women medical care so she's a strong trippi triet as i have ever met. >> host: virginia, go ahead, please. >> guest: >> caller: how are they doing the market analysis? is extracted the community or other certain similar ways it's been done here in this country? >> guest: this is a fun business question. what's interesting about taliban years is the market opportunity was created because the sort of close the country off from the rest of the world and that is what created the opening for the dresses that were homemade and most people have always bought imported dresses and was because all the people use to buy the fancy stuff or not there anymore that the local market existed. nowadays there are firms that
help afghan men and women, little bit and deliver it analyze market opportunities and think about what is the business of that i should go into with the idea that i have and that is something they spend a lot of time working on. >> host: can you describe the quality-of-life for the women that you observe? >> guest: it's a tough question only because they are so grin and bear it that you very rarely hear people complain and i think they are so energized by the ability to make a difference for the family. and these women love the work they do. and her sister who is a character in the book is now at university working with her to help in her business. she just got back into the dressmaking because in the interviews she remembered how much fun she had making dresses that she started doing that again and she is the mother of four. >> host: but she's permitted to go to universities. >> guest: yes, and these are
women who because when the minister the positive difference women earning an income can make this a lot of men in this book - to our incredibly supportive. the worry for the safety of the women in their family. but when they see the benefits that they are being out and working can make, they are incredibly supportive, and that is not unique to the people in this book. when you spend time in rwanda, afghanistan, places like that, many see the benefits of not having to support 12, 14 family members on their own. >> host: birth control is nonexistent? >> guest: actually i have done some stories for the christian science monitor and that accounts of foreign relations looking at this and a lot of women are asking for it, and a lot of them have not been involved in telling communities it really is okay because it's about women's lives and women's health. it's about family economics but it's really about women's lives and women's health in their view and so you do start to see a lot
of people moving in that direction. >> host: manhattan, kansas. we have about five minutes left. manhattan, you are on the air. >> caller: hello. i'm curious to know what your assessment is of the unlikelihood, i will put it that way, of centralized government for a country where things are so strong the organized by tribes. whether the kahn, is the feeling of the tribe to tribe and getting at least closer so that there can be more to detente and so forth that they can have agreements among the sections of the country without necessarily having to live under so to speak? >> guest: the central government in afghanistan matters but people get on with their lives sort of no matter what as people do all around the
world. and i think it has been tough with the karzai government because a lot of people fled the government presents as many challenges as these offers solutions and so i think what you see with entrepreneur is particularly like the women in this book is i'm going to keep doing what i do because my family needs me, and eventually i will become part of a group that goes and advocates for better government adel local level which isn't so much a problem but it's a national level where it's much more of a challenge. >> host: you're going to get another try at this call from california. we missed you earlier. you are on the air now. >> caller: yes. i'm interested in the influence of fred martin said central asia -- >> host: i'm glad you asked the question because i wanted to point out the audience greg martin's and provides the jacket for your book and since it's been published the full 60 minutes controversy so what is
his influence as the call wants to know and what are your thoughts on the controversy? >> guest: his had always been not in the cities and this takes place in kabul so i think that his influence in terms of afghans the life that over the years especially at the time spent in kabul was less because that isn't where the central asia institute ever operated. it's where they are mostly. i can get is an incredibly sad turn of events. i was as surprised as anybody else and i think that what is so important as people realize that the issue of the girls' education is so much more important than the individuals whoever it is, whenever the storyteller is because there are girls in the story with kidnapping and potential acid attacks just for the opportunity to go to school and i think that is the biggest hurdle is keeping most people will never meet those young women fighting every day to go to class.
>> host: much has been recovered in the future of afghanistan. as we close out here, what is the one take away that you want people to have about the country's based on your experience in this book? >> guest: what most people want and afghanistan is what most people want in this country, the ability to send their kids to school, the ability to feed their families, and the ability to make sure that the next generation has a better shot the future that's peaceful and that is what i hear over and over and i could because the coverage shapes so much of what we know about afghanistan a lot of people won't ever meet those people and i hope they get to know some of these unsung heroines to be posed to you had such a success are you already thinking and not the second book? >> guest: ibm because it is sort of mission driven if you've gotten people to pay attention to the women's stories and not so much soft when i think the work the women do is very hard. i want to go to liberia and i
met this really compelling entrepreneur who has a very dramatic story and is now running a pretty fascinating business there. >> host: thanks for being with us. again, the dressmaker khair kahn is gayle a lemmon's first book and you can find it easily weather on line as an ebook or in your local bookseller bookshop. thanks again for being with us. >> guest: thanks for having me and thanks for all the calls to >> host: this is the final author program for today. we do have one more panel session ahead as the "los angeles times" festival of the book and it's on climate change going back to domestic issues for the next session. let me tell you a bit more about it. the organizers call it a boiling point climate population and the firemen, the moderator is margo result of the times, she's a staff writer and among the panelists, mark sewn has written a book called the world without fish, matthew kahn, and judith lewis is a journalist at lawrence smith of the world in 2015, the forces shaping
civilizations number future. we are going to beginning the live coverage straight away. >> we are going to try to move this panel long briefly. we are asking you if you have questions in mind to try to think in three sentences in your question. [laughter] and i have a little tighter. i going to time our panelists, too, cindy on and on and so that we have a lot of time for audience questions. i'm going to start with lawrence smith at the end. lawrence smith is a geography professor at ucla. he has authors more than 50 scientific papers, and his work is featured prominently in the assessment of the united nations intergovernmental panel on climate change, the ipcc. smith spent 15 months traveling the northern rim countries from alaska to greenly and to russia
to research this book the world and 2050: four forces shaping civilization number future. his. he visited remote villages, lived on the canadian icebreaker, interviewed lumberjacks, diamond mines and it's really a terrific book, by the way. in a deep and broad and diet to climate population, natural resources. i recommend it to all of you. a fun facts about mr. smith, professor smith i should say. he left his wife and the finished blackly a long week. [laughter] so professor smith, one topic of your book is that the population of the earth is going to grow 50% in the next 40 years to 9 billion people.
so the question arises can the world support so many people? and should we be paying as much attention to overpopulation as climate change? >> guest: that is a great question. and i would actually -- i might surprise the audience by saying i feel we should perhaps worry less about the absolute number of people living on earth and think more about the material consumption and lifestyle choices because it is the truth of the matter is even if we do grow populations 30, 40% by the mid century and it isn't my projection that is the united nations population division model. the truth is that the rural to urban migration that's taking place and the dumping world of china, india and africa is amazing. thank you. is the better? i don't need to start over. should i keep my answer to three sentences? [laughter]
i might surprise the audience by saying that the consumption pattern of the average person may never even more than the actual head count of people on earth and to that end, the future in terms of resources demand stems from these tremendous cities in china and the developing world and even africa has matthew kahn studied in his work on urban growth. >> thank you. matthew kahn is a professor at the ucla institute of the environment, department of economics, and the part of public policy. he has a ph.d. in economics from the university of chicago. on his blog, which is at greeneconomics.blogspot.com, calls himself a free-market environmentalist. remember, and university chicago economics department i was
definitely after reading his book put the emphasis on the free-market. he wrote a book called green cities, urban growth and the environment and his most recent book, climatoplis features cities in the era of climate change. fun facts about matt kahn, he likes to talk about how much he looks like quentin tarantino. [laughter] >> the truth hurts. [laughter] so, matt, here's my question. climatoplis is written in the breezy popular style, and it has a sort of breezy optimism to it. you write at one point and i'm quoting here, the innovative capitalist culture will allow us to make a faludi stifel these cade from climate change most devastating impact.
what makes you so sure of that? >> my mother always told me to avoid wishful thinking, and i always try to be provocative to see if the folks are a week. i take climate change very seriously now that 12 minutes is up -- [laughter] i love good jokes. i take climate change very seriously. and my optimism is really -- the core of my optimism, and i don't want you to walk away thinking i am a 90 optimist is that when we anticipate a challenge that our minds in the world of 7 billion people, perhaps 9 billion people, if enough of us are scared and aware of the challenge climate change pos is, the beginning of address in tomb head on is anticipating a problem and if our best minds as zuckerberg, maybe a few ucla faculty, in the world we have seven to 9 billion people in
anticipating major challenges and anticipating there will be the market as folks are using their blackberry might now to text my exciting points -- [laughter] in the world where there is the need for climate change innovation that demand the supply so my optimism isn't my eve wishful thinking that if we anticipate and like the titanic if we can see the iceberg ahead, if we are afraid of the iceberg this is the beginning of the time to take a pro-active action we will help many of the said act to this very scary scenario. >> thank you, matt. [applause] >> i meant to hold up matt's book, climatoplis. there is. [laughter] mark kurlansky began his career as a playwright but soon more often to journalism. he's written 20 books, is that right, mark? >> 22 bachelet.
segment 22 books. all right. three of his best known books have related themes, the biography of the fish that change the world and i want to say i just listened to this on a cd during my commute and is a terrific book. salt, the world history, and the big oil easter, history on the half shell. [laughter] his latest book, world without fish is directed at a young adel audience and with flashy graphics and less illustration. it's really fun to look through and read and interesting to read apart from being very scary. [laughter] it's the perfect for primer of people in any age is another words. fun facts about marrec, he has had a job as a dockworker, commercial fishermen and a pastry chef. so, mark, you've written this very scary book, the world without fish.
at one point you say the takeover of the world by jellyfish is not that far-fetched and very likely to happen in a world without fish so tell us about that. how exactly do you see that happening? >> well i'm not saying it's likely to happen, it's likely to happen if we have a world without fish. has to do with the whole notion of how the species survive -- it is goes back to darwin if there's not enough individuals in the species or they can survive and if there aren't enough different species to live around the start disappearing which causes more species to disappear and if you have enough disappearing you can send the whole thing into a tailspin and go back 550 million years to the cambrian age when there was nothing but plankton. jellyfish are zooplankton, most
visible in the durable and outlive us all. i call them the cockroach of the sea because we don't like him very much. [laughter] with your gistel for survival. but this is the scenario, this is the worst-case scenario and this is the scary scenario that has matt was saying it will hopefully inspire us not to let it happen. >> thank you. judith has some questions. >> i do. and my first question is for dr. smith. you present a dilemma in your book and it says if we want to be altruistic and meet every one around the globe to our standard of living you give several examples. the consumption factor in this country is 32 and some other to allow the country's it's one. if we want to let everyone up to lower standard of living in a very altruistic way toward global consumption would rise 11 fold. and win quickly exhaust our
resources. are those the only two choices? is there a way we can raise the developing world standard of living and yet not increase the consumption factor? >> many people would argue yes in fact just earlier speaking with matthew about how china is actually developing cities more green than in the u.s. and the developing world as lived examples where technology leapfrogs over what is currently modeled by the united states and western europe and africa and the developed world, so in many ways i think there are alternative but is that example the consumption factor which is actually not my calculation that's by my colleague in "the new york times" op-ed. the point needs to be made very clear we need to let go a little of the obsession how many people live on the earth and think more about the lifestyle we have. >> okay. and so i also have a question
for matthew kahn to read a lot of scholars predict a flood of climate refugees will create enormous hardship in the world. people will be fleeing from drought, sea level rise in scorching summers but you seem to treat this as an opportunity rather than a tragedy. you said at one point extremely mobile ventures will come from the little if the city is struck by climate shock. do you really think folks in bangladesh and even a phoenix are going to find it easy to pick up and move? >> as a man that moved to los angeles three years ago, yes. you raise an interesting question and my time is still your. when you mean to say the challenge of the ability to get up and move act as a type of insurance policy. katrina would have cost less
damage to the people of new orleans had the storm had been anticipated and had there been strategy is to evacuate so there's questions or they are providing a high frequency ellen folks to respond to that information akaka peaden dingley nseries a very serious issue. my hope and maybe this is the mikey optimism that my mother asked me to give up is in the case of bangladesh its physical proximity to india and china could there be gainst the rational migration, my brandt other moved about 90 years ago with the world was welcoming immigrants. as china ages could be the case china would welcome people for bangladesh and they won't be environmental refugees where it sounds like a flood but will there be gains to trade? immigrant have done great things for the device. there can be gains to trade in the international labor of people moving to the richer china from bangladesh moving to
the richer india buffalo so to provide them information and the ability to move and give them the freedom of choice to move if the fields in their best interest. >> that is an interesting theory. bangladesh is to china. i wonder what china will say about that. mark, your book talks about choosing the right fish to eat and writing letters to public officials what can we do about overfishing? but specifically, can you tell us what has been the record of the obama administration of fishing issues, and if we did have the power to influence the government, our government, what law or policy is exactly are now pending that should be enacted? >> guest: director of the obama administration is
dramatically different than the record of any other administration. there's an act of congress which regulates fisheries and it regulates within the 200 file limit and on the international issues it's not much of a priority. [laughter] which is why i say to write to elected officials generally the ball gets carried by delegations from massachusetts, alaska, washington state and things in that as the riders on cornell's and things. i would like to see a number of things, i would like to see fishing issues become bilateral
talks in china and the u.s. and japan instead of just being relegated to environmental conferences. i would like there to be more restriction to consider the possibility of outlawing and severely limiting the lines. there's a historic record on the audio drivers to support this that wherever they go decline in fish stocks go into everybody's agreed to do something about the decline in the fish stock to regulate but one of the most obvious ways of regulating would be the sort of the year der restriction they don't want to do because they are politically difficult. >> so our government, this new administration hasn't advocated that, correct?
>> guest >> not the administration, no, nobody in the government does. with i was giving a talk for the 200th anniversary, and i talked about this and this roomful of government regulators with absolute shock they said so you are saying that we should ban was eased? if people look at the history of it it becomes obvious, but there are a humane way is to do these things. you can't just tell the fisherman whose entire life and everything he owns is invested in this big vessel that he has a mortgage on. they got into these things with government programs and government programs and soft loans should be helping them get
out of it. >> thank you. [applause] lineup if you have a question, line up the microphone, everybody. while they are lining up, can i ask one last question? and this is really for all the panelists but especially for matthew. i've noticed in the literature of climate change recently that we've moved from looking for sending out warning seemed looking for solutions that a few years ago all these books were about everything we had to do to reverse climate change and now it seems to have happened we moved into this time where we are not talking about reversing it but about how we are going to add up to eight and we are going to do now that it's inevitable and is it really such a fait accompli and is this the discussion we should be having? >> i moved to california from boston because my excitement of
california as the green and guinea pig and i think that with waxman markey and the cap-and-trade of the federal level i think an awful supporter and they will have this guinea pig and a fact of showing texas and other parts of the world you can have a greenly economy and a successful economy and economists unfortunately, people don't have an incentive right now to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. i'm a fan of tamil gargasz and i'm going to be booed by the people in this room. [applause] that shows you i can't predict the future. we haven't taken our medicine and that's why i turn to adaptation. i wish we want to our medicine and i will hand this over to laurence. >> we should be rooting for 10-dollar gas because this is not a simple decision of oh we've accepted a fait accompli?
effect to wear all of the fluids baliles of the surface of so we need to do both and adapt and adjust to those changes coming but also be finding a long-term solution to the halt of the process. >> thank you. so, we will start over here and bring the microphone up to your chin if you can and keep your question short, please. can we turn on a microphone here on the right?
okay. speed is that on? in terms of resource consumption -- can you hear me? >> not every well. >> better? >> can we lift the microphone up a little? >> has anyone done any work on like determining which resources are more limited, for example? or is labor considered a resource, like human skills? and how can we better focus our reduction of consumption since
the? laurence, the one to take that on? >> leader was not included in that calculation. was focused on the mid material for all commodities. in fact, when you talk about labour you are getting the classic debate between simon and ehrlichman and someone because you and labor, human capital brings a great benefit to the world. but as far as focusing on one commodity versus the other there are certainly some that are more limited than others for civil the electronic industry, the river and so forth these are limiting for particular sectors. >> matt, anything to add? >> i would add that the issue again is incentives. there's only one idea in economics that people respond to incentives, and it's taken me quite far. we need to face an incentive to decarbonize and use less
resources. if there are less resources to take into account the tragedies of the oceans is he optimistic that we would limit our consumption or slow down the footprint? >> yeah, there are incentives. i mean, for one thing eighth line caught fish is more valuable than a driver caught fish because it is indeed not in the net and looks better and you can go to any display option wholesale market in the world and they will tell you the best prices are for line-caught fish. right there the fishermen have to catch less fish to earn a living as their only way of surviving is to have a more quality product so that he can get more for each fish, and it turns out happily that some good, sustainable techniques will do that. a lie always say that the consumer can regulate fishing better than government can buy just choosing a fish from the
good fisheries but it's extremely difficult to do to get the information. so i tell everybody, and this is how kurlansky will become a cursing word in the fishing industry, i tell a devotee when you go to the fish market ask where the fish came from and what kind of year it was caught with and they will know the answer but if ravee does this it will eventually become part of the fish marketing the will be understood it's what people want to know. they do this for or stirs gastronomic lead. you know where it came from and what it's all about. i can do this for fish. if you do this nobody's going to buy the fish that's that story where did this fish come from? the flemish cap on the 200 while canadian limiter's no regulation and we just drag the hell out of the place. [laughter] okay i will buy that. [laughter] >> i would just point out that it was ted stevens who enacted the law saying that american
supermarkets had to post where the fish came from. wasn't because the consumers, you know, were ought politically correct people and foods were going in and say where is this fish from? it had to be enacted into law, and i would be very skeptical that coming to know, all of the people in this room or even all of the good, you know, meaning the people that we know going into supermarkets and things saying did you catch it on a line or did you catch, you know, in a way that didn't damage to fish would really do the same, have the same effect of the government regulations. >> i disagree. i think that as matthew was saying it's about economic incentives. it becomes clear that this is what the consumer wants and this is the smart way to self . it will happen. >> okay. optimistic. that's very nice to hear. here's a follow-up. we will take a question on this side of the room. >> good afternoon.
i've heard many claim we're hitting the tipping point of no return if you will with regard to our ability to counteract climate change. given that, how much, mainly directed at mr. speed and the others as well how much time do we have to wait, what role should we deeply in? >> so, you put your finger on the weakness or challenge to my optimism that if we face tomorrow, the tipping point such that there's no going back and we regret that we have crossed the sticking point, then we have got a big problem. the question that ucla's climate scientists continue to debate is, and i'm not one of them, i'm going to turn this over to laurence in the second, is are we there yet? and the resilience -- this may be a convenient argument -- the convenience of ecosystems and parts of nature, such that if we
know that we are getting close to the tiffin point, the key ugliness would be if recrossed the tinplate and we never knew, but if we could -- if our scientists could identify the tipping point, then in this sense sort of like the titanic we would have the last upper to the to avoid this iceberg but i would ask laurence what he knows about the likelihood that there is the unique tipping point in terms of the points per million in a greenhouse gases. >> one of the reasons that the temperatures in a flexible is so erratic is because it's not -- the climate system, there's a lot of tipping point. there are many prophesies that will don't have to pinpoint all. you put the whole sum together and missile with a signal that's been pumping up erotically over time. so the good news or the bad news i should say yes, there are some tipping points that are quite fearful. for example in the north they contain a huge amount of organic carbon that could release methane which is 25 times more
powerful than co2 as a greenhouse gas. that's an excellent a run away tipping point. but there are other -- the release of co2 to the atmosphere -- i wouldn't call that a tipping point but it's a cumulative because unlike other greenhouse gases, co2 persists person jury perhaps even a thousand years. so from a human standpoint, once it is up there it stays and leaders. but there are other aspects that aren't tipping point that all. snow cover and ice cover it cools again, that i sit and smoke spreads and it has a cooling effect. there's nothing irreversible about it. so i think the notion that we are past the tipping point, no looking back, fortunately it is a simplification that isn't something that we need to hold our actions. >> okay we will take a question from this side of the room. >> with regards to international scoffed laws with in terms of fishing and resource management, what mechanisms are available to
both the united nations and the u.s. to deal with them and should we or should we not press them to keep them in line? >> laurence, you want to start? >> i would defer to mark on that one. >> mark. >> the japanese. >> , economist with a jump in and say this is why we need to privatize the ocean. and so we think that private property gets treated pretty well relative to public property. and so, it's not the hit the of answer but it would reduce the extraction of fish and would create incentives because if one harvests the fish then they are not there to growing and reproduce the next year. >> let's back up a second. there's something that needs to be understood here, that there